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Terrorwhelming's avatar

Great article. I appreciate how you viscerally show the full horror of Roman slavery without sugarcoating. God speaks to a broken world, and we should not minimize how broken the world is.

Catherine Jones Payne's avatar

Yes—minimizing those realities puts us on a weaker foundation for interpreting biblical texts and, I think, makes us more likely to miss their meanings.

MJ's The Right Stuff's avatar

We see how broken things are as well — and we’re working on building something better. It’s steady progress, but it’s real. You’re welcome to take a look at what we’re doing.

Scot McKnight's avatar

Have you read Fairchild's new book on Paul as formerly enslaved? I'm glad you read Glancy; she's at the top of the heap on this topic. When I wrote my extensive sketch of slavery to open the Philemon commentary, I found her and Bradley to be most helpful. Plus the Routledge anthology of ancient slavery. Your Substack reminds me of Peter Oakes' fine sketches in his book on archaeology and Rome. Very well done.

Catherine Jones Payne's avatar

Thank you!

I just recently became aware of Fairchild’s book and am very much looking forward to reading it—it’s a fascinating idea.

Sarah J Wright's avatar

Absolutely this: “But we should not (and cannot) ‘rescue’ the Bible from itself by repeating bad history about first-century slavery. (As if the Bible needs our help!) Bad history is no foundation for good theology.”

When we teach a manipulated version of history and the Bible, we teach people to accept distortions of the truth. And if we take Jesus seriously when he claims to be the way, *the truth,* and the light, that’s going to be a problem, particularly in today’s political and social climate.

Catherine Jones Payne's avatar

💯

I think we can trace some reasons why it’s exegetically convenient in certain quarters to downplay Roman slavery.

Justin Schmidt's avatar

Your treatment on the topic is very thorough! I enjoyed the read!

What Else Can I Do's avatar

I think a huge reason people want to repeat this myth is because we want to square a flat reading of “slaves, obey your masters” with the fact that most of us support American emancipation and civil rights. We cheer for enslaved black Americans who escaped to freedom before it was legal.

And the real solution to that perceived problem is to dig deeper into an understanding of the trajectory of scripture and what was and wasn’t being commanded in those “tricky” passages.

Teddi Deppner's avatar

Thank you, Catherine, for not shying away from the reality of life in this broken world back then (best as we can tell from historical texts). It's such a mistake to cling to comforting illusions, whatever they may be. The Bible is a discomfortable text, and I believe it is meant to be that way. Life is complex and the fallen world is ugly -- but still, God has mercy. (I loved your Easter post!)

Matthew Lingafelt's avatar

Super insightful! I wrote an article a while back on the manumission process. Intriguing and makes sense as to why there weren't that many calls for it in the NT. I'm looking forward to how you address the issue.

JohnJohn's avatar

This is fascinating, and now I’m curious about your thesis and how this all relates to Paul’s writing on sexuality and slavery. Is Paul creating a permission structure, where he is subtly telling slave owners that they cannot sexually abuse slaves for their pleasure, but telling slaves that they are not sinning when their master abuses them? I can’t help but think that modern evangelicalism resolves the conflict by assuming Paul is telling slaves to preserve their sexual purity and that they are obligated to refuse their masters advances, even if it means their death. And that seems pretty horrifying to me.

Catherine Jones Payne's avatar

I think he does subtly tell enslavers to not sexually abuse their slaves.

I actually think his message to the enslaved is pretty nuanced: Do the best you can to live chastely, but don’t feel your membership in the Body is jeopardized if you’re forced or coerced.

Jeremy Prince's avatar

Do you suppose this is because Paul had a problem with sexual intercourse overall? Or specifically that he believed it was ethically anathema?

Catherine Jones Payne's avatar

I think he specifically believed that an enslaver committed porneia by engaging in intercourse with an enslaved person.

He intertwines his arguments about sex with his brief discussion of slavery and freedom in ways that are interesting and feel intentional—I first noticed it when I set out to read 1 Corinthians while imagining how an enslaved hearer might have understood it. The way he discusses status reversal also comes into play.

I’m going to get into my exegesis in Part 3 of my current series (middle of next week).

But I think he puts married men under the same obligation of fidelity as married women, and he deems pre- or extramarital sex with a slave woman to be non-licit, just as pre- or extramarital sex with a respectable woman would be.

Jeremy Prince's avatar

A thoughtful and nuanced response! Thank you for the generosity of your reader engagement, Catherine. I look forward to additional essays and series.

All the very best.

Taylor Yoder's avatar

The narrative in this is beautiful, it is almost as if you are a fiction writer? Thank you for this! Have you read "A Week in the Life of a Greco-Roman Woman" by Holly Beers?

Catherine Jones Payne's avatar

I haven't! I've perused some of the others in that series, but not that one. Is it good?

Taylor Yoder's avatar

I really enjoyed it! I finished it in one day.

Catherine Jones Payne's avatar

I’ll have to ILL it!

Jadon Reynolds's avatar

Love the way you used narrative to exposit. Certainly will save this post for use in church education.

Catherine Jones Payne's avatar

Thank you! The first version of this post didn't have the narrative, and I'm really glad I decided to tear it apart and restructure.

Zack Gross's avatar

Wow Catherine. I love this personalized way of exploring the topic. It really makes things concrete. I have heard so many repetitions of the argument that it wasn’t that bad. I am excited to read more when you release it

Catherine Jones Payne's avatar

Thank you! That argument is far, far more common than it should be—so much of it downstream of S. Scott Bartchy's dissertation from the 1970s. His book makes some points that I think are very good, but at the time he wrote, there was just not enough scholarship on the conditions of first-century slavery. And so he ended up constructed a rose-tinted view of the institution that has, unfortunately, continued to be cited even after better historical research was done.

Zack Gross's avatar

Oh man. What a bummer. That’s does seem to be the way things go. I’ve across a few of those same patterns in classes this semester.

Rachel Palm's avatar

Beautifully written and so well researched! It is amazing to see how your fiction writing is helping others fully grasp the story your research reveals.

Catherine Jones Payne's avatar

Thank you! My first draft actually didn't have the sketches, but as I read it over, it just felt wrong. Prima's been a character in a term paper, my thesis, and both of my conference papers, and I really think that it helps us to picture an individual rather than an abstraction.

Rachel Palm's avatar

So true! People remember a story more than they remember facts. This is such good weaving of both.

Jeremy Prince's avatar

This was hard to read, and that is the point. Thank you for bringing clarity to this topic. Congratulations on your upcoming MA. 🙏🏻